Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

Tag as favorite
Difficulty: My 2 Cents
Mackey
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2012 2:23:32 PM
Rank: Member

Medals:

Groups: Tester, Registered
Joined: 1/4/2012
Posts: 25
Location: AB Canada

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 0 time(s) in 0 post(s)
Well I loaded the app onto my IPad2 yesterday and (predictably) haven't done much since then besides playing it. Since I'd read through a bunch of the posts on here ahead of time, I was aware of the "debate" about the difficulty level of the game, so thought I'd throw my opinion into the mix.

IMO, the game is not too difficult, but I think getting started might be. Perhaps there's some nuance that I haven't grasped yet, but I've played nearly 12 hours and haven't really made any significant progress. It seems like I spend about 90% of the time in the castle, creating (replacement) characters, moving items around, re-ordering the party, a few short minutes in the dungeon, then back to the castle to toss people out of party to go "rest" the fighters, putting everyone back in, re-ordering them again. When I'm actually in the dungeon, trying not to use any resources if I can hel pit, if I'm lucky enough to run into some small groups of easy monsters I may make some progress. If I'm unlucky, though, I'm limping back to the castle with maybe 2 or 3 characters still alive -- or not. If not for the Portal, it seems like it would be virtually impossible to get a good foothold.

I have no quarrel with the game being challenging. I've never shied away from the grind. When I first played this game 25 years ago I must have spent 1000 hours on it and had to figure out absolutely everything for myself, so I definitely don't shy away from the tough going. But I have an obsessive, bull-doggish sort of personality, and I'd say that most people don't. I think that reality combined with the set-up of the game is going to wipe out 95% of your potential audience within the first 48 hours. It's basic psychology. We're all just Skinner's pigeons... We repeat the things that we find rewarding. Nearly every game out there is built around this principle. The first level is quick and easy and VERY achievable. The player gets their first taste of success, enjoys it, and decides they'd like another. The conditioning has begun. Each level is progressively more difficult than the last, but never so far out of reach that the players sees the effort as being more trouble than the reward is desirable. With the way Oubliette is currently configured, I think it's asking too much of players too early. IMO dungeon 1 should be ALOT easier so players can get into it, make some progress, have some fun, and get the addiction going. If they can get up to level 10 fairly readily, and THEN the difficulty curve turns up sharply (in DL2 or DL3?), I think there's a much better chance that the game could succeed than if players are thrown immediately into the deep end.

FWIW,

Mack
John Gaby
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2012 2:54:42 PM
Rank: Administration

Medals:

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 2/21/2010
Posts: 586
Location: California

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
What you have encountered is what a number of people have complained about. Once you figure out how to play the game, you will find that what you describe doesn't happen and the initial levels are actually fairly easy (assuming you don't actually start with all level 1 characters, that is tough). However, if your party is wiped out almost immediately, that can be a real deterrent to further play.

As a consequence we have made the game a little easier at the beginning. In version 2.0 you can only meet 1 monster group on level 1 and only up to 2 monster groups on level two. We have also made it easier to find the gold you need to rest (another big complaint). On the flip side, we have made the lower levels tougher. On the deepest levels you can meet up to 5 monster groups and we have fixed a bug which essentially prevented the monsters from casting spells under most circumstances which made the lower levels much easier than they should have been.
Mackey
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2012 4:04:04 PM
Rank: Member

Medals:

Groups: Tester, Registered
Joined: 1/4/2012
Posts: 25
Location: AB Canada

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 0 time(s) in 0 post(s)
John Gaby wrote:
What you have encountered is what a number of people have complained about. Once you figure out how to play the game, you will find that what you describe doesn't happen and the initial levels are actually fairly easy (assuming you don't actually start with all level 1 characters, that is tough). However, if your party is wiped out almost immediately, that can be a real deterrent to further play.

As a consequence we have made the game a little easier at the beginning. In version 2.0 you can only meet 1 monster group on level 1 and only up to 2 monster groups on level two. We have also made it easier to find the gold you need to rest (another big complaint). On the flip side, we have made the lower levels tougher. On the deepest levels you can meet up to 5 monster groups and we have fixed a bug which essentially prevented the monsters from casting spells under most circumstances which made the lower levels much easier than they should have been.


Sounds just right! The gold thing...yes. I didn't realize until much too late that the Portal wasn't returning me to previous gold levels. I remember in the original that every character was created with a certain amount of gold (or received some from the guild when they graduated?!? -- something like that...) so you just have to create and kill off a bunch of characters to get some seed money. I'm doing nearly the same now -- going on an expedition, using whatever potions I need to, (hopefully) collecting some gold along the way, and restoring from the Portal rather than resting everyone. It's a bit klugy, but I was at 9 gold, so desparate times...

BTW, what's the best way/place to make suggestions? Here or using the link in game?
Is there a list of planned changes (so I'm not throwing out a bunch of stuff that's already in the works)?
John Gaby
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2012 10:09:20 PM
Rank: Administration

Medals:

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 2/21/2010
Posts: 586
Location: California

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
This would be the best place, then everyone can see.
Gidoza
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:15:57 AM
Rank: Newbie

Medals:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 12/31/2018
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 0 time(s) in 0 post(s)
John Gaby wrote:
What you have encountered is what a number of people have complained about. Once you figure out how to play the game, you will find that what you describe doesn't happen and the initial levels are actually fairly easy (assuming you don't actually start with all level 1 characters, that is tough). However, if your party is wiped out almost immediately, that can be a real deterrent to further play.

As a consequence we have made the game a little easier at the beginning. In version 2.0 you can only meet 1 monster group on level 1 and only up to 2 monster groups on level two. We have also made it easier to find the gold you need to rest (another big complaint). On the flip side, we have made the lower levels tougher. On the deepest levels you can meet up to 5 monster groups and we have fixed a bug which essentially prevented the monsters from casting spells under most circumstances which made the lower levels much easier than they should have been.


This response doesn't really make any sense. First, if a number of people are complaining about it (and not because they're unintelligent, but because the complaint is legitimate), it's worth addressing: it's your flashing red light that something is wrong.

Secondly, your response of "once people figure out how to play the game" that the problem no longer happens is a self-generator of the problem. New players won't figure out how to play the game because it begins too hard, no reward is generated early on, and thus no incentive is created to keep on going, so the game is not learned. The statement is self-defeating.

Lastly and most importantly, having a starting set of characters is not rewarding. The very concept that is constantly mentioned that people want to start with their own Level 1 characters I think is something basically sacrosanct. Why start the player with several pre-made players that aren't "my own" and which I don't care about in order to tediously level up the characters I want to level up by lots of position swapping and such, when the whole situation could be avoided by simply making Dungeon 1 a legitimate tutorial level that Level 1 characters can handle? Adding pre-made characters to solve the Dungeon 1 starting difficulty just adds another level of complication and tedium that in my opinion, makes the game less appealing, not more - mostly because it shouts out "design flaw." A solid beginning of a game lets you start out on your own terms and draws you in to the game gradually.

Also, regarding the original post - I'll have to "challenge" the poster's use of the word "challenge." Going through this whole process isn't a challenge - it is *merely* tedium. Challenge is when failure is not guaranteed, yet you take on something just at the cusp of your ability willinglyly because it is presented to you openly with all the risks laid out. You understand fully all the possibilities and go in with an acceptance of the consequences. In Dungeon 1 for a new player, nobody knows much of anything: the help menu doesn't describe how leveling is done (you need the forums), and one will assume the difficulty level to be much lower than it is (which it isn't), among other things. This is simply *asking* for frustration, which is what it is - NOT challenge! I came to the forums, read a few things, and then figured it out easily enough, but none of it is intuitive - and the forums should never be the fundamental source of knowledge for driving through the game. That's the place for game design and improvement, but as for the game itself and it's mechanics - the game itself is the proper place for every syllable and description there is about how it works so a newbie can't possibly screw up apart from their own ignorance and free choice. Would we ever see a board game without all the rules laid out in the purchased board game? (To this day, I have yet to phone the developer of any board game to figure out how it worked.) The same goes for good computer games.
John Gaby
#6 Posted : Friday, January 11, 2019 7:12:35 AM
Rank: Administration

Medals:

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 2/21/2010
Posts: 586
Location: California

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
The game is undeniably hard. However your assertion that the game does not provide you with sufficient information to play and that other games (board games and computer games alike) do is baseless.

Take the board game chess for example. It is quite easy to find and learn the rules which teach you how to move the pieces and how to tell when the game is won. However this does not tell you how to PLAY the game. To do this you must read many of the books on the subject and/or find someone who is experienced to teach you how to play.

For computer games, pick pretty any much any modern game and you will find that complete information on how to play the game is not included. In fact, a quick internet search will turn up hundreds of tutorials, walkthroughs and youtube videos designed to help you with the game.

Finally, as to your complaint about starting with an existing party rather than starting completely from scratch. You have to understand that the original game of Oubliette was a multiplayer game which was first release in 1977 (yes that was more than 40 years ago). In that game (which was actually quite harder than this one), a given person only controlled a single character and parties were composed of a group of real world players. When you created a new character you did not go down into the dungeon by yourself and you did not generally go down in a party of all level 1 characters. Instead you would join a party of more advanced characters who would help you build up your new character. The starting party was intended to simulate this experience. No one expects you to hang on to those first characters for all that long. The idea is that you use that party to first learn how to play the game, and then later you create you own characters which you add to the party, eventually replacing all of the original ones.
Gidoza
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 9:19:27 AM
Rank: Newbie

Medals:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 12/31/2018
Posts: 5
Location: Ottawa

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 0 time(s) in 0 post(s)
John Gaby wrote:
The game is undeniably hard. However your assertion that the game does not provide you with sufficient information to play and that other games (board games and computer games alike) do is baseless.

Take the board game chess for example. It is quite easy to find and learn the rules which teach you how to move the pieces and how to tell when the game is won. However this does not tell you how to PLAY the game. To do this you must read many of the books on the subject and/or find someone who is experienced to teach you how to play.

For computer games, pick pretty any much any modern game and you will find that complete information on how to play the game is not included. In fact, a quick internet search will turn up hundreds of tutorials, walkthroughs and youtube videos designed to help you with the game.

Finally, as to your complaint about starting with an existing party rather than starting completely from scratch. You have to understand that the original game of Oubliette was a multiplayer game which was first release in 1977 (yes that was more than 40 years ago). In that game (which was actually quite harder than this one), a given person only controlled a single character and parties were composed of a group of real world players. When you created a new character you did not go down into the dungeon by yourself and you did not generally go down in a party of all level 1 characters. Instead you would join a party of more advanced characters who would help you build up your new character. The starting party was intended to simulate this experience. No one expects you to hang on to those first characters for all that long. The idea is that you use that party to first learn how to play the game, and then later you create you own characters which you add to the party, eventually replacing all of the original ones.


Your example of Chess doesn't even relate to my statement and you've just reinforced further how the rules of Oubliette aren't provided to the player. How to move the pieces in Chess is the rules of the game. You might need to learn Chess strategy to get good and win, but the *RULES* are never a mystery to you. As for the rules of Oubliette - as I said, if you need to go to the forums to figure out how leveling works (eg that there is a possibility of a level when you make a kill or take a hit), then the rules of the game haven't been provided to the player. The strategy of how to level characters *using* those rules (eg hypermicromanage your weak characters to the front at just the right moment) - that's something different.
John Gaby
#8 Posted : Friday, January 25, 2019 7:34:18 AM
Rank: Administration

Medals:

Groups: Registered, Administrators
Joined: 2/21/2010
Posts: 586
Location: California

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
It has been my experience that rules such as exactly how leveling works are NOT described in most video games I have played. You generally need to either figure that out yourself or search the internet for the answers. Oubliette is not different in that regard.
Asturonethorius
#9 Posted : Monday, March 11, 2019 11:52:49 PM
Rank: Member

Medals:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/11/2019
Posts: 15
Location: Davenport WA USA

Thanks: 0 times
Was thanked: 0 time(s) in 0 post(s)
Is the game very hard: Yes. Impossible, improbable, unlikely, too hard? No.

1. Read the in game help menu. Your wrong about it. Its helpful. Just have to have patience, read it A LOT.

2. Like the Admin said you can use a couple, few, of the starting characters to help your created level 1 characters.

3. You can successfully use a full party of created Level 1 characters, if:

A.. Balanced Party of 2 Samurai, 2 Rangers, 2 Priest, 3 sages, 1 mage

B. Do not get thief, Ninja, for traps, trapped chest, as Samurai deal with Traps

C. Replace the 2 Priest with either 1 more Samurai, or 1 more Ranger, and 1 more Sage, WHEN sages get to level 3, because sages cast healing spells, can do everything Priest can do at 3rd level plus cast Mage Spells, making Priest not as good later on. But in beginning 1,2 Priest are necessary.. Also Samurai get healing, Priest Spells. Rangers are important because they fight good, get Priest Spells, Mage Spells

D. Samurai Should be either Dwarves, Gnoll

E. Rangers should be human

F. Sages should be human, dwarves

G. Mages be humans preferably but Elf just barely ok.

H. Priest be Human, Dwarf, Elf

I. Certain class, race combos are bad, because they are WAY TO EXTREMELY SLOW TO LEVEL

Examples: Elven Sage: Way too extremely slow to level

J. When create character Prime Class stats should be about 22, to 27, so that when graduate from class guild have a 26 to 32 in Prime Class Stat. Examples: Mage, Sage: Int 22, to 26. Will havecto have patience to reroll 150+ times per created character, but worth it.

4. If you register, you get 30+ portal gems.

5. Use Portal Gems properly, not too often so dont run out, not too little either. Use when enough risk, so that if bad happens, can go back. The portal is like being able to load a saved game.

6. You get 10 of each type kind of healing potion, and 10 cartographer scroll. If you sell 1,2,3 scrolls, 1,2,3 potions of full healing, you will have 400 to 1200 gold to combine with starting gold to buy gear, rest at inn.

7. When in dungeon use resources moderately. If dont use resources, cast spells, etc, your party, characters will die, if you use too many resources, spells, then run out, maybe die, not make it out, back.

8. Learn when, how to return, get back, out. Stay to long, go too far in dungeon, you die. Leave too soon, dont level up, get gold, items, etc.

9.If characters, party dies, you can create portal, then use ei5her a characters raise spell, or goto house of healing to raise dead. If raise attempt fails, use portal try again until raise dead party member.

10. When rest. Use mix of BOTH 15 gold, 50 gold options. Dont worry about aging because rest for 1to 5 months per rest. As get lots of gold later, then can use 250 gold option so that resting only take 2 to 5 weeks instead of 1 to 5 months

When learn these things, the game is not as hard. And it doesnt take that long, not that hard to learn these things. It wasnt that hard for me. Oh sure I had characters die, got parties wiped out, etc. But I had the patience to read the in game help, read the game hint, tips, when, if they popped up, and I EXPERIMENTED.

And probably most importantly I am a OLD School RPG player who has beaten, played LOTS of RPG games, and so because of that I have learned some things, traits, etc, that make game easier.

I understand newbies getting frustrated, quiting, because its too hard. But the problem with newbie players is that many of them have no patience, dont have the smarts, traits, for this game, give up, quit, way to quick, easily, because tbey are entitled, or so they think, and think the game should be easier.

Such players dont play hard games like sodoku, etc.

Also my party characters

2 level 14 Samurai. Both Dwarves. 1 with 38 strength. Hp 153, Hp 125

3 human Rangers, level 12,13. Ave Hp 100

4 human Sages. 1 level 10. 43 hp 1 level 9. 28 hp.1 level 8. 17 hp 1 level 4(added to replace a character)

1 Elven Mage. Level 9. 48 hp.

Played the whole party from created from scratch at level 1. Did not use any of the starting characters

On Dungeon Level 4, about to go to dungeon level 5.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Tag as favorite
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

GabySoft (GABYSOFT.COM)
Powered by YAF 1.9.4 RC1 | YAF © 2003-2009, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.180 seconds.